# Fuel Price Overload????? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [May 25, 2008, 9:52am UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754 "2008-05-25T09:52:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![aj-quick](https://forum.gbfans.com/user_avatar/forum.gbfans.com/aj-quick/32/188008_2.png) [@aj-quick](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/aj-quick)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/21 "2008-05-26T02:56:05Z")
> [@Marsupial](#): > > or a fully electric one. > > [http://www.zenncars.com/](http://www.zenncars.com/) I just checked that out with high hopes. The Zenn is nothing more than a fancy $18,000 Golf cart! I could build a fullsized electric car that goes 100 miles to a charge for cheaper using an existing Sub Compact car. > [@Marsupial](#): > > On a side note, maybe our fuel is more pricey then the US one, but our hydroelectricity is cheaper šŸ˜› Didnā€™t you guys steal Niagra Falls from us!? :lol: Or was it the other way around? ---
**Author:** ![aj-quick](https://forum.gbfans.com/user_avatar/forum.gbfans.com/aj-quick/32/188008_2.png) [@aj-quick](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/aj-quick)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/22 "2008-05-26T02:58:22Z")
> [@Exoray](#): > > > [@AJ Quick](#): > > > > $25 to fill up a motorcycle!? (alsoā€¦ motorcycle with 5 + gallon tank!?) > > Itā€™s got a 3.82 gallon tank with a .75 gallon reserve, but it will take over 5 gallons if you fill it to the tippy top, itā€™s a unique gas tank as there really isnā€™t a tank, the whole frame is hollow and that serves as the gas tankā€¦ Thatā€™s cool. What model? Iā€™ve always liked the Buells.. I think I would get a Buell Blast if I was to start riding again (used bikes are a good alternative to the gas prices). I bought one for $400 before the price increases 2-3 years ago.. and I sold it last Spring for $800. I had a friend in a similar situation and he sold his for $1200 this Spring. ---
**Author:** ![Exoray](https://forum.gbfans.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/e/d26b3c/32.png) [@Exoray](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/Exoray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 3:15am UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/23 "2008-05-26T03:15:09Z")
Buell Firebolt XB12, not the best on gas by a long shot but better then a carā€¦ Probably going to pick up a Harley this summer so I have some storage space (saddle bags) the Buell isnā€™t really practical for day to day driving without anyplace to put anythingā€¦ The Buell Blast are a fun cheap bike, you will probably have a lot of fun with one if you are looking to save gasā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Marsupial](https://forum.gbfans.com/user_avatar/forum.gbfans.com/marsupial/32/210_2.png) [@Marsupial](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/Marsupial)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 3:25am UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/24 "2008-05-26T03:25:42Z")
> [@AJ Quick](#): > > > [@Marsupial](#): > > > > or a fully electric one. > > > > [http://www.zenncars.com/](http://www.zenncars.com/) > > I just checked that out with high hopes. The Zenn is nothing more than a fancy $18,000 Golf cart! > > I could build a fullsized electric car that goes 100 miles to a charge for cheaper using an existing Sub Compact car. > > > [@Marsupial](#): > > > > On a side note, maybe our fuel is more pricey then the US one, but our hydroelectricity is cheaper šŸ˜› > > Didnā€™t you guys steal Niagra Falls from us!? :lol: Or was it the other way around? Niagara Falls is in Ontario. And New York State. Only, Niagara NY is a pretty boring fall, while Niagara, Ont is a shoehorse shaped fall. Makes for more touristic attraction. Nobody stole from anyone, just that the 2 cities are aside eachother in both countries. This being said, its in Ontario. Iā€™m in Quebec. Look it out on a world map, its like 3 times bigger then texas, with loads of lakes and rivers we used over the years to build up several dams for hydroelectricity generation. We do sell some of our supplemental hydro to you guys, and ontario. Oh, and the Zenn is a fully road safe car. Iā€™ve worked on solar powered vehicles while in college (a la american solar challenge) - if you can convert a subcompact and keep it roadworthy, good for you, but I strongly doubt youā€™ll be able to make it road approved while keeping price low. there are ZENN at 12000$, they are road approved in your country. Problem with subcompact cars is that they are framed to hold (and restrain in case of impact) a heavy engin, while electric motor are lighter. Youā€™d essentially be wasting electricity because of your original frame. Thatā€™s why most company makes hybrids and about none makes electric onesā€¦ power effiency. The ZENN isnā€™t ment for highway, but for urban transit. I agree it sucks at a highest speed of 60km/h but for in-town usage its perfect. ---
**Author:** ![aj-quick](https://forum.gbfans.com/user_avatar/forum.gbfans.com/aj-quick/32/188008_2.png) [@aj-quick](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/aj-quick)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/25 "2008-05-26T04:06:08Z")
> [@Marsupial](#): > > Oh, and the Zenn is a fully road safe car. Iā€™ve worked on solar powered vehicles while in college (a la american solar challenge) - if you can convert a subcompact and keep it roadworthy, good for you, but I strongly doubt youā€™ll be able to make it road approved while keeping price low. there are ZENN at 12000$, they are road approved in your country. Heh. In our state, we donā€™t have any inspections or anything. I know the basic Zenn is like $12,000 for last years model, but the top of the line 2008 is $21,000ā€¦ and according to the site would have the same capabilites as a 50cc scooter. (no highway use, top speed in the 30ā€™s mph). > [@Marsupial](#): > > Problem with subcompact cars is that they are framed to hold (and restrain in case of impact) a heavy engin, while electric motor are lighter. Youā€™d essentially be wasting electricity because of your original frame. Thatā€™s why most company makes hybrids and about none makes electric onesā€¦ power effiency.. Actually I would wager that a good sized electric motor would weigh just as much as a gas engine in an engine bay. With some batteries and the engine controller it would easily weigh more. Then with several more batteries in the rear.. youā€™d probably have to cut weight somewhere to make it better. Most subcompacts also have unibodies.. so as you mention they are designed to crumple and react a specific way in collisions, but they donā€™t have heavy frames. > [@Marsupial](#): > > The ZENN isnā€™t ment for highway, but for urban transit. I agree it sucks at a highest speed of 60km/h but for in-town usage its perfect. That really wouldnā€™t work in most suburban settings. City usage yes.. [New York City](https://www.gbfans.com/wiki/new-york-city) would be perfect. Pizza delivery.. perfect vehicle. But the majority of Americans need to use highways in atleast some part of their daily routine. I mean.. 35 mph is the speed of the road just down the street, and itā€™s 45mph to work. But.. the majority of Americans could use an electric 50 mile range vehicle in their daily commute. I think that was mentioned in the ā€œWho Killed the Electric Carā€ documentary. Cool bike Exoray! ---
**Author:** ![gazza554](https://forum.gbfans.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/g/13edae/32.png) [@gazza554](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/gazza554)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 12:32pm UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/26 "2008-05-26T12:32:45Z")
> [@slimershomie](#): > > gas is 3.80 a gal here it sucks i wish it could be that price here, like i say, it roughly about Ā£5..75 per gallon, which is approx $11.50 per gallon!!! ---
**Author:** ![Marsupial](https://forum.gbfans.com/user_avatar/forum.gbfans.com/marsupial/32/210_2.png) [@Marsupial](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/Marsupial)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/27 "2008-05-26T16:01:48Z")
> [@AJ Quick](#): > > Actually I would wager that a good sized electric motor would weigh just as much as a gas engine in an engine bay. With some batteries and the engine controller it would easily weigh more. Then with several more batteries in the rear.. youā€™d probably have to cut weight somewhere to make it better. Most subcompacts also have unibodies.. so as you mention they are designed to crumple and react a specific way in collisions, but they donā€™t have heavy frames. Then youā€™d wager wrong. one of the top idea for people building electric vehicle is to save weight, in order to save power. I donā€™t want to waste time arguing with you, but I understand you have no real knowledge of electric vehicles. Look over whatā€™s been done, and what is offered. you might want to check over [http://www.americansolarchallenge.org/](http://www.americansolarchallenge.org/) they have fully solar vehicle that goes 140 km/h at full sunlight. ---
**Author:** ![aj-quick](https://forum.gbfans.com/user_avatar/forum.gbfans.com/aj-quick/32/188008_2.png) [@aj-quick](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/aj-quick)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/28 "2008-05-26T16:24:13Z")
I would love to have a respectful debate / discussion. No serious disrespect is intended. > [@Marsupial](#): > > > [@AJ Quick](#): > > > > Actually I would wager that a good sized electric motor would weigh just as much as a gas engine in an engine bay. With some batteries and the engine controller it would easily weigh more. Then with several more batteries in the rear.. youā€™d probably have to cut weight somewhere to make it better. Most subcompacts also have unibodies.. so as you mention they are designed to crumple and react a specific way in collisions, but they donā€™t have heavy frames. > > Then youā€™d wager wrong. one of the top idea for people building electric vehicle is to save weight, in order to save power. > > I donā€™t want to waste time arguing with you, but I understand you have no real knowledge of electric vehicles. Look over whatā€™s been done, and what is offered. > > you might want to check over [http://www.americansolarchallenge.org/](http://www.americansolarchallenge.org/) > > they have fully solar vehicle that goes 140 km/h at full sunlight. If you are going to claim I have no ā€œrealā€ knowledge and then state that you wonā€™t argue with me.. then what is the point? The fact of the matter is I do have quite a bit of knowledge regarding Electric Vehicles. I know that the reason behind building EVs from scratch is to save weight. The fact that I say that if I take the engine out of my car and put in an electric motor I wouldnā€™t be saving any weight. The engine in my car weighs roughly 275 pounds. Electric motors vary in weights but they **do** weigh a lot. Iā€™ve seen ones that weigh 360 pounds, and I just installed a 5HP motor that weighed more than 100 pounds. With 3-4 more batteries crammed into the engine bay around the motor.. and then with more batteries in the cabin.. you will have more weight then normal. Hence you will need to lighten the car else where. Speaking of Solar.. Iā€™m not entirely interested in that kind of vehicle you are referring to. Those cars are both lightweight, aero dynamic, and completely unpractical for normal driving. They are simply built for maximum distance and speed running off of the sun. In High School I worked on and rewired a Solar powered Kayak.. we had it running entirely off of solar. Some genius decided we werenā€™t gonna run with a battery at all (and I had no say in it.. because I wasnā€™t actually on the Solar team at the time.. I was just asked to rewire it because I knew how). It was unfortunate that our race day was a bit cloudy.. but we still got around the lake. (and we won an award for having the only purely solar boat). I also worked on a highmilage vehicle a little bit in High School. We had a 3 wheeled vehicle that would go 590 miles per gallon at about 40 miles per hour. (that is cheaper and faster than the Zenn). I am working up plans to convert one of my vehicles to electric. Before I do that though.. I need to cut about 1000 pounds off of it to make it light enough to make it worthwhile. Again. No disrespect is intended.. but if you are going to call me an idiot without any basis or argument.. then I am going to argue back. ---
**Author:** ![Exoray](https://forum.gbfans.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/e/d26b3c/32.png) [@Exoray](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/Exoray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/29 "2008-05-26T19:14:36Z")
> [@AJ Quick](#): > > With some batteries and the engine controller it would easily weigh more. Then with several more batteries in the rear.. The battery systems in hybrids are around 200-300lb in themselves, I suspect to get a decent (real world practical) full electric vehicle you would at least need to double the battery capacity if not moreā€¦ An iron Chevy 350 weighs in at about 600lbs, most new engines are aluminum blocks and weigh much lessā€¦ Battery weight alone will almost certainly be inline with engine weight even before the motor is factored inā€¦ I would love to think that an electric vehicle was the answer, but the technology is no where advanced enough for the mainstreamā€¦ Also when you work out the cost factors itā€™s simply not economical yet for most peopleā€¦ As for solar powered vehicles they are useless for the real world right nowā€¦ Take any solar powered vehicle and tell me with a straight face you would be able to commute 50 miles round trip to work, drop off and pick up the kids at soccer practice, swing by the grocery store, and later in the evening swing out with the whole family to the theater to watch a movieā€¦ Sorry it isnā€™t going to happen with current solar technologyā€¦ \*\* Edit and lets not forget creature comfort, in electric cars the heating and AC pose big issuesā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![aj-quick](https://forum.gbfans.com/user_avatar/forum.gbfans.com/aj-quick/32/188008_2.png) [@aj-quick](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/aj-quick)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/30 "2008-05-26T19:55:19Z")
Batteries are pretty much the limiting factor. We really need to better manufacturering technology to make better batteries cheaper. Sealed Lead Acid batteries are pretty archaic when compared what could be used in an electric vehicle. Lithium ion batteries could triple the range of a EV while reducing weight compared to SLA. New batteries are being developed all the time that hold more charge while being lighter.. it will just take some time (maybe a decade or two) for those batteries to trickle down and be cheaper to make. By that time a lot more things will probably be dependant on battery power.. just imagine only having to charge your cell phone every week or other week.. and your laptop battery lasts all day. As far as the creature comforts go. Heat isnā€™t too bad. Electric motors do create heat, and they have liquid cooled ones too. Some people use these in a similar fashion running through a radiator and heater core in EV conversions. Otherwise youā€™ve gotta use heater coils.. which draw electricity. A/C similarly you can run the compressor off of the motor (or directly with a seperate motor).. but it is gonna draw electricity no matter what. Maybe some secondary system could be setup using dry ice or something? ---
**Author:** ![Ron\_Daniels](https://forum.gbfans.com/user_avatar/forum.gbfans.com/ron_daniels/32/12_2.png) [@Ron\_Daniels](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/Ron_Daniels)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/31 "2008-05-26T20:10:29Z")
Oh how I long for an electric pickup truck. ---
**Author:** ![Exoray](https://forum.gbfans.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/e/d26b3c/32.png) [@Exoray](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/Exoray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/32 "2008-05-26T20:42:27Z")
> [@AJ Quick](#): > > Heat isnā€™t too bad. Electric motors do create heat, and they have liquid cooled ones too. Some people use these in a similar fashion running through a radiator and heater core in EV conversions. Otherwise youā€™ve gotta use heater coils.. which draw electricity. A/C similarly you can run the compressor off of the motor (or directly with a seperate motor).. but it is gonna draw electricity no matter what. Maybe some secondary system could be setup using dry ice or something? I know itā€™s possible but the power requirements for electric heat and cooling are huge, the amount of amps required to heat and cool is way out of line with the reserves available by batteriesā€¦ Also electric cars are geared towards efficiency, the motors donā€™t draw any current when you are parked or stopped in traffic, the same canā€™t be said for creature comforts they need to run full time or run double time to make up for lost timeā€¦ The only viable solution right now is to resort right back to fossil fuels for heating and coolingā€¦ Yeah maybe someday battery technology will provide the answer, but itā€™s not in the immediate future as you said itā€™s decades away at bestā€¦ And this also brings up other important issues, as people migrate to electric powered vehicles the whole electrical grid and even house wiring will need to be upgraded to handle the loadā€¦ In addition to building many more power plants to provide this electricityā€¦ And right now besides nuclear there really isnā€™t any alternative source for electricity that is able to handle the load (windmills/solar/hydro are all location specific and costly) so that leaves us with the same fossil fuels we are trying to get away from to provide the powerā€¦ Just look at places like California where they are already pushing the electrical grid beyond itā€™s capacity requiring rolling black outs just to stay online, and I sure everyone here has experienced brown outs during the summer months when AC use is highā€¦ The whole electrical backbone will need to be rebuilt, as it canā€™t even handle the current loads efficiently this will also take decades to upgradeā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Exoray](https://forum.gbfans.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/e/d26b3c/32.png) [@Exoray](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/Exoray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/33 "2008-05-26T21:01:15Z")
> [@AJ Quick](#): > > Lithium ion batteries could triple the range of a EV while reducing weight compared to SLA. Catch 22, this in turn just makes us dependent on simply another small select group of countriesā€¦ Also when you consider the amount of Lithium availableā€¦ [http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium\_shortage.pdf](http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf) > [@](#): > > There are currently nearly 1 billion motor vehicles in the World. To equip them all with a small 5kWh PHEV > > battery would use up 24% of the worldā€™s existing Lithium metal reserves using LiIon batteries Not a real promising outlook, when you read that whole article in reality we would exhaust all recoverable Lithium supplies almost immediately in the grand schemeā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![aj-quick](https://forum.gbfans.com/user_avatar/forum.gbfans.com/aj-quick/32/188008_2.png) [@aj-quick](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/aj-quick)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/34 "2008-05-26T23:22:27Z")
Have you read about the EEStor capacitor? > **[EEStor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor)** > > FuelPositive Corporation (formerly EEStor) is a company based in Cedar Park, Texas, United States that claims to have developed a solid state polymer capacitor for electricity storage. The company claims the device stores more energy than lithium-ion batteries at a lower cost than lead-acid batteries used in gasoline-powered cars. Such a device would revolutionize the electric car industry. Many experts believe these claims are not realistic and EEStor has yet to publicly demonstrate these The c... ---
**Author:** ![Exoray](https://forum.gbfans.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/e/d26b3c/32.png) [@Exoray](https://forum.gbfans.com/u/Exoray)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754/35 "2008-05-27T00:22:55Z")
> [@AJ Quick](#): > > Have you read about the EEStor capacitor? > > [EEStor - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor) There are a lot of promising alternative battery ideas, and that appears to be oneā€¦ But, only time will tellā€¦ [Previous page](https://forum.gbfans.com/t/fuel-price-overload/24754.md?page=1)