Just wanted to share some industry news.
As a group leader for a GB group, we try to work with a lot of kids charities. I for one, who have been dying to go to PKE Surge, will be joining the boycott. This kind of child abuse is absolutely despicable.
If we can start enough of a dialogue, maybe we can move PKE Surge to another great centrally located convention.
Just food for thought!
I boycotted Dragon*Con a few years ago… solely because it’s in Georgia… that and the Varsity.
But didn’t the convention separate themselves from the guy like 12 years ago? Aside from the fact he has shares in Dragon*Con stock… but I mean.. if you were boycotting every company that had that.. you’d be boycotting probably every company out there.
What would boycotting Dragoncon accomplish? There’s terrible people everywhere, and as interconnected as the world is these days, you probably wouldn’t have to kick over many rocks to find scumbags loosely affiliated with many things you hold dear.
The person in question hasn’t been involved with Dragoncon beyond owning stock since 2000.
http://www.11alive.com/news/article/205680/3/LAWRENCEVILLE-DragonCon-founder-arrested-in-Connecticut
His stock pays dividends, which help him pay the legal fees to keep dodging prosecution (and remain free) - DC has tried to buy him out and he won’t sell. So while DC has distanced themselves from him, boycotting them is really the only way to affect him, either by publicizing the issue, pressuring DC to do what’s needed to cut him out entirely, and to a certain, hypothetical, probably minor amount, reduce his income from the show.
Now, having dodged prosecution for 13 years, he might not have much wiggle room left, but the theory holds. It’s likely the publicity is more important than the money, well, every little bit…
Hi, HNIC of the Georgia Ghostbusters here, and an attendee of DragonCon since 1998…
As AJ and TJ both pointed out, this has been handled as much as is possible at the moment.
Unfortunately total separation can’t occur until he is convicted and/or sells his shares.
To be honest DragonCon is the only convention of its exact type so by default it is the largest…Number wise last year saw around 60,000 attendees at the con and half a million on the parade route.
This is the 25th anniversary of the con which promises to be bigger than ever.
The so called boycott that has suddenly sprung up online (after 13 years of this being common knowledge I might add) is nothing but another example of hive minded slacktivism in the best case, and in the worst case, a handy excuse for those that didn’t have enough money to go in the first damned place.
Like AJ alluded, I defy you to name a single major convention, organization, or corporation that you like or support that doesn’t have SOME of its financial shares going to fund either the defense of or participation in illegal, lewd, or just acts you don’t agree with.
We all hate what Kramer did…Hell, if I could I shoot him in the face right now. But legally our hands our tied.
So if you don’t want to come to the con because of that, that’s cool.
While you sit at home basking in self-righteousness I’ll be driving my Ecto along with Ernie Hudson and 50,000 of my closest friends.
Also, here’s the official word from DragonCon on this issue…
There has been a great deal of discussion as of late in the community regarding our continued financial connection to Edward Kramer. Please know that we are as troubled by this circumstance as anyone else, but please also know that there is no simple, legal, solution to this matter…if there were, it would have been resolved long ago.
For the record, Edward Kramer resigned from the Dragon*Con convention in the year 2000. Since that time, he has had no role in the direction or management of the convention; however, he remains a stockholder despite our desires otherwise.
Since Edward Kramer’s arrest in 2000, we have made multiple attempts to sever all ties between Edward Kramer and DragonCon including several efforts to buy Edward Kramer’s stock shares. Unfortunately, Edward Kramer’s response to our buyout efforts was repeated litigation against DragonCon…thus our buyout efforts have been stalled. The idea proposed of dissolving the company and reincorporating has been thoroughly investigated and is not possible at this point. Legally, we can’t just take away his shares. We are unfortunately limited in our options and responses as we remain in active litigation.
The current flood of “information” about this litigation appears to have been taken from the multiple lawsuits against Dragon*Con filed by Edward Kramer and his lawyers (i.e., Edward Kramer’s arguments and allegations, not documented facts). To our dismay, much of this misinformation is being quoted as pure fact despite the reality that a court of law determined that many of the facts and figures provided by Mr. Kramer in his law suits were false, inaccurate or completely fictitious.
It is our sincere hope that the end is in sight and that the upcoming trial(s) in Gwinnett County will provide a resolution of Edward Kramer’s guilt or innocence, and therefore a cause of legally divorcing ourselves from him once and for all.
Since 2000, Dragon Con has been managed by three of the original co-founders, Chairman Pat Henry and board members Dave Cody and Robert Dennis. In that time the convention attendance has grown from less than 10,000 to over 52,000 fans. Our goal has been and will continue to be, to provide the greatest fan driven science fiction/fantasy convention in the world.
We do hope that everyone understands that due to past, present, and possible future lawsuits we find ourselves unable to comment further on any matters concerning Edward Kramer. Please do not construe any future silence on the matter as a lack of concern on the part of the Dragon*Con staff and more specifically, our board of directors.
We will continue to strive to provide the best possible experience for our attendees, volunteers, partners and invited guests alike.
We are, and will remain, for the fans, by the fans.
Boycott away maybe you will help shorten the panel lines and unclog the dealers areas a touch… in all honesty if your going to be upset at something you should be upset with the slow uncaring defunct system that has failed to put together a compelling enough case to put this scumbag behind bars for good.
Ive attended every year since 2000 and will be there in 2013
Wut? So he makes money from D*C to pay for his legal fees, which is a problem… and the solution is to give him more money?
Tl;dr - They don’t want to give him money, but they legally have to. :sigh:
First I would like to say thank you for demonstrating that you win at internetz.
Secondly, As HNIC of the Austin Ghostbusters, we in our short time together are already very proud of the work we are doing in supporting local charity efforts, and at the heart of those efforts we focus on helping children. So, with this in mind I wouldn’t in good conscience go to this event. It is simply a matter of principal.
As a working member in the comic and game profession I could go to this event for free, and since when should we belittle others because they “didn’t have money to go in the first place” These sorts of attitudes toward fellow fans and fellow GBs is uncalled for, demeaning, and against the spirit of what I had always thought this community was built upon.
Unfortunately the fact is is that even though the event has TRIED to distance themselves from him, he still receives money from ticket purchases that you make. Those bills go towards his litigation, as AJ pointed out, and the only way to keep that from happening is to stop giving him your money. Would the event take a hit from this, yes, but if enough people stopped giving their money to this event, he would lose his creep-fund, the show would file chapter 11 and regrow after then being able to sever legal ties to him in the process.
If you can give this man your money and turn a blind eye to this behavior, that is great for you, enjoy your Ecto and your parade. Sincerely, I mean that.
If you have ever worked with kids who have been sexually abused, I assure you we wouldn’t have to have this discussion.
Overall I’m not bothered by much, but I DO make and effort not to give money to causes I disagree with, hard as it can be to do so sometimes, but the difference in this case always comes back to kids. KIDS. There’s enough evil bullshit to have to deal with as adults, kids shouldn’t have to learn about it so early and so harshly. And giving this convention your money, gives an evil, sick man your money.
Thank you
:sigh:
Why screw over a company when they are required by law to pay their share holder?
Once a conviction comes down, they can foricibly disolve the guy’s shares and it will be done with. That’s what the Dragon*Con people are waiting for.
Have you seen a recent picture of this guy:
From The Atlanta Journal Constitution:
Edward Kramer, 51, was booked into the Gwinnett County jail Saturday afternoon on child molestation charges dating back to 2000
I don’t think he’s long for the world, that and those prisoners won’t be too kind to a child molester. I think Dragoncon’s problem may be over soon.
There’s a special spot in hell waiting for this guy.
God he looks like one of those radical mormons that had six wive and a billion children.
Sent from my LG-MS840 using Ghostbusters Fans on Android
Boy, you guys suck at large moral quandaries.
Chace - go. Enjoy yourself. OP brought it to light and people can do with the information as they please. It’s informing people like this that caused this current groundswell. That’s not slacktivism, that’s awareness, plus Internet, reaching a certain point.
Attending while aware is a neutral position, as much as boycotting it is a gestural protest more than a practical one. Mocking the people boycotting… who gives a ■■■■about abused children, drinks with Ernie Hudson! Saying you’d shoot the guy doesn’t really buy you the leg to stand on to taunt someone that is taking a stand. Right or wrong, they’re taking a stand. You don’t have to agree, you don’t have to follow, but a person who actually cares about the underlying issue should probably counter with something more than “Nyah Nyah, we’re going to see Winston and you’re not.”
“There are bad people doing bad things everywhere.” So why bother? Just say, “Not my problem, don’t care.”
AJ - Kind of like the Inland Empire thing again. Doing nothing trumps doing something. Uncomfortable topic is uncomfortable! And yes, buying him out is money paid and dividends is money paid, but dividends keep paying out and buying him out is cutting him loose once and for all.
The bottom line isn’t the bottom line, it’s a statement. You don’t have to make the same statement, but I trying to undermine it…
Sure, his time may have run out finally. Or maybe not. Regardless, I would be in a rush to party too hearty until he was finally convicted. One might say its a little cavalier, all thing considered.
I’ll chock it up to the suggestion about moving the gathering - again, you don’t have to like it, but why not say you don’t want to move it, instead of mocking the guy on the CHILD ABUSE ISSUE!?
There will never be enough participation in this boycott to make a serious financial impact on Kramer. That being the case, by not going you are only really hurting yourself by missing out on the event.
The majority of people barking about this online (meaning online elsewhere) seem to be people that have never attended anyway. Child molestation is something most people despise which makes it easier for people to jump on the bandwagon when they really weren’t considering taking part in the first place. It’s like seeing people on Facebook a while back with the Chick Fil A ban photos up, when they didn’t live in a state that had Chick Fil a.
As far as the suggestion of moving pke surge, surge is the gathering of GB fans at dragoncon…that’s just what it is. BUT there’s no reason anyone else couldn’t do similar events elsewhere. In fact it has been done. Surge will probably continue to be the largest by virtue of where it is.
I don’t like how chick Fil a spends their money but I like their sandwiches
I don’t like how the government spends my tax money but I like not being in jail for lack of payment
I don’t like that Kramer gets a share of the DC money but I love DC
The difference in the three is the thing I don’t like about Dragoncon, isn’t their fault.
Which is fine. It is a cynical, generalized, but not without some portion of it fairly applying to some of the people “barking” on the matter, Internet-wide. Put as a diminutive, as you have, barking is better than not.
A fellow fan and group decided to bring it up. And you shot them down because you don’t see the point or a better way, so why spoil the fun.
How is that somehow better than some knee jerk kid online who shares the news and then thinks that’s all it takes?
For a guy willing to shoot the guy (speaking of hollow gestures, a guy happy to pay his taxes to avoid jail isn’t actually going to shoot anybody) would you discuss the matter at the show - discuss it as loyal attendees with other loyal attendees? If someone protests will you support them or at least leave them be, or would you tell them they’re stupid, why bother as well? Where is the line between agreeing the matter sucks but why bother? Apathy is fine, but where’s this energy coming from then? And why apply it here, but not direct towards the larger issue?
All that had to be said was “agreed he’s a slimeball, we don’t think moving the gathering is the right way to do something about it, but we understand your interest in the matter and respect you’re taking a position.”
Though, respect does come dearly 'round these parts.
Somehow I think Chace was being hyperbolic with his “shoot someone in the face” statement. You’ve brought it up as an argument a couple of times now, though, so maybe you missed it.
I’d understand all of this rage if this guy was involved in D*C’s operations, if he currently worked for the con, hell, even if he helped pass out flyers, but considering the con has actively distanced itself from the guy (who, by the way, I would drop an atomic bomb on if he was near me FOR REALZ), I don’t see what a boycott is going to do. What message are you sending?
Activist geeks: “HEY DRAGONCON DON’T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CHILD MOLESTER.”
Dragoncon: “We don’t, and we’re actively seeking to totally dissolve our ties with him.”
Activist geeks: “YEAH BUT SERIOUSLY I’M NOT COMING UNLESS YOU DON’T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIM.”
And?
Here’s a better idea - why not go to Dragoncon and use it as an opportunity to raise donations for a child abuse advocacy or prevention group? Here’s a few:
http://www.preventchildabuse.org/support_us/index.shtml
http://www.preventchildabuse.net/donations.htm
http://www.401kids.org/action.php
There’s dozens more, and I’m sure they’d all gladly take donations, even if they came from people who dress up like Ghostbusters for fun. That kind of action would make a MUCH bigger dent in the issue at hand than simply not going to a convention that has extremely loose ties to one guy that no one likes. Or hell, DON’T go to Dragoncon, but hold a week-long donation drive in your own town for one of those organizations instead.
Or I guess we could all just post about it on the Internet.
I honestly think the reaction in this thread due largely to the location of the OP. The points raised wouldn’t have been so readily dismissed if it had been brought up by a member who lives in Georgia, and moreso if it was brought up by someone who had attended Surge in the past.
We’ve all had to deal with the constant spray of shit from the internet that we have developed incredibly cynical shells. After seeing all of the vfx and chik-fil-a “protests,” the guy may as well have suggested we boycott a convention in Tokyo.
In the end, I do think that Chris’ stance is the right one.
Once again Kevin is correct in all things.
Despite what you may think of me, I question the motivation in MANY of these protesters, but not the stance.
So here’s the deal…
Carpeteria brought up more than a few worthy charities in his post…
We in no way ask for money to be a part of PKE SURGE…but this year we will have a big bucket or barrel or container of some sort…in that we will ask for donations…ALL of which will be given to the following 6 charities in equal amounts.
http://www.preventchildabuse.org/support_us/index.shtml
http://www.preventchildabuse.net/donations.htm
http://www.401kids.org/action.php
Please understand, this particular attack on the con is annual and is the same as people coming here wanting complete packs for $75.00 or a running driving 59 M+M for $500 we hear it ALL THE TIME usually from people who are just hearing news that is 13 YEARS OLD
So there you go…here’s your chance to go to DragonCon AND take and active strike AGAINST this abuse! I’d LOVE if people, based on last years attendance(only because we don’t know what this year’s will be) , figured how much Kramer got and donated that much to offset it.
Is there a way to contribute in support with PKE Surge for those Ghostheads who cannot attend?
Kramer apparently had to sue for his 2011 dividends, which he claimed at $154,000. No word on his 2012 dividends, but he did collect for 2009-2010 (and presumably all years previous).
http://www.atlantamagazine.com/features/2012/09/01/dragoncon-ed-kramer-child-molestation
Not yet, but we’ll make one soon.
