Sales Thread and Karma Arguments.

[irricanian]

nvm

[aj-quick]

@irricanian

@AJ Quick

The only real “problem” with the system is that someone can vote systematically for or against a person or group and just claim it’s just their opinion.

Yes and this can be done by a grouping of users in unison, it takes what, 10 negatives to get a post hidden. There was recent example of a users post being jumped on to the point of it being hidden when all he was doing was asking for “help”

So it is my understanding that you believe there is a conspiracy to have 10 individuals collectively vote and change their opinion to downvote something they don’t agree with? Yet. When you vote it is being done from with in, based on your opinion?

You don’t think… I don’t know. Maybe they have a different opinion from you?

@irricanian

Hypocrisy, no. My downvoting a particular post has no effect but if several others join in it currently has the power to hide a post.

When you say “join in” I think you mean… when they “vote”. Again. This is a complete double standard because it affects you, and is different from your opinion.

@irricanian

Lets not forget about sales I give positive karma to when I see something good, like I said it’s the content not the poster.

So you would agree that there are many sale threads you downvote… but there are others that are too good of a deal so you upvote them?

@irricanian

So you do not share individual’s voting history, yet you shared mine. Talk about Hypocrisy!

My voting history was not an issue until VinC made it so and Protoncharger saw it as an opportunity. I received no “warning” that my voting practices were being" watched" and I have a clear conscience about my voting and like you said “one vote” per person.

Let me explain something. There is a difference between revealing a voting history (IE.. exactly what you voted for and how.) and your voting habits. We monitor data trends. Not individual votes. If we notice a trend, such as downvoting competitors’ for sale threads. We will watch it until it becomes substantial enough to consider it a problem. (Or have enough data to support calling it abuse).

Also. Why the hell would we send you a warning or let you know that we were watching your voting patterns? We watch the votes and use the data to determine LONG TERM if there is a problem. We are not going to contact you after the first few votes and say Just wanted to let you know we’re watching you!.

@irricanian

This would not happen on the RPF, Protoncharger has been banned from there. I’ve told you on numerous occasions what’s been going on for the past 3 years and even asked your opinion on what to do about it to which you told me to ignore it, as have other mods not wanting to rock the boat. I’m quite content to go about my business and it’s only when Protoncharger (who’s been warned to steer clear of me supposedly) steps in to stir it up that we “have a problem”

This may not be the RPF, but regardless of that… your conduct, whether it involved ProtonCharger or not (and whether or not he was banned from the RPF) is considered to be highly damaging to the prop community as a whole. You have blamed ProtonCharger a lot in this thread. How did he step in here and stirred the pot? Because he made a post in this thread? Which was AFTER Kagi and VinC decided to mix things up? It seems to me you are just looking for someone to blame.

@irricanian

I didn’t do it to get around karma left, I did it because my thread was hijacked and hidden from the community. I was not intended to “abuse” your system.

And yet. After making your post. VinC posting. The thread being split… etc. You made another post to get around the Karma system. Nice. Your thread was hidden by the community. That’s the thing you’re not grasping here.

@irricanian

**Since this time Protoncharger has harassed me both here and on other forums, including Facebook. But it’s MMM that has the problem right? My “problems” are because of these people and they are the only people I have an issue with on GBfans… but look away NO conspiracy here. **

Yes. It is a huge conspiracy when 3 users state their opinion against you, and that opinon is negative. Not everyone is going to like you Colin. Not everyone likes me either (though ironically, they still use my site, and my work freely). I don’t call it a conspiracy. I don’t blame a third party for those people. I suck it up and move on. I do my best to make improvements (things like the Karma system) and make changes for th better. Despite giving everyone a vote and a say.. apparently that is unfair and “broken”.

@irricanian

Yes it is Vin and it’s never been “publicly” posted and now it has and if the people here can’t see whats inherently wrong with this then there are bigger problems, the other info i have relates to two of the individuals and just further reinforces my claim.

They don’t like you. That’s it. It’s not a surprise. It’s not evidence. People are allowed not to like you.

@Vincenzo330

The very first order I ever made from anyone on GBFans was from you and to be honest I wasn’t very impressed with what I received I may have even made similar comments to what you posted but that was OVER THREE YEARS AGO and you’ve improved on many items since then. The difference between myself and others is that when I wasn’t pleased with something you were selling I contacted you about it and tried to offer constructive criticism, have I not?

@irricanian

Always about dredging up the past, we all grow and improve over time, point is to focus on the future and not live in the past.

Always dredging up the past! Colin doesn’t do that… oh wait…

@irricanian

This was from a 2010 chat session that one of my customers informed me of

Mmmhmm.

Colin. You’re problem is a matter of opinion. Your opinion is the only thing that matters. You don’t allow anyone to have one that differs from yours. This is true with selling parts, getting feedback on parts, or on how you conduct your business. It has always been true.

Frankly I’m sick of the act. As VinC said:

@Vincenzo330

We all get it, everyone has an ego wants to throw jabs but then wants to pretend that they’re innocent and are just “voicing their opinion”. It’s all REALLY OLD..

[Wallabe]

The last time I posted serious feedback about you (it was negative) along with a few others, there were several reports that you were actively seeking out names so those of us who posted this honest, serious, but negative feedback could be banned. Some of your parts could do with improvement, and you sell to shady people. That’s honest feedback, take it or leave it.

[lunchbox739]

Since folks are airing out their dirty laundry ill add 2 cents just for ■■■■■ and giggles…I happen to like PC, the guy has helped me out on a couple of things since ive been here…having said that I understand there are people who have a beef with Colin for whatever reasons but I would like to think if he were guilty of anything…IE recasting or some similiar offense AJ and the mods would have laid the ban hammer down already.

Now if folks are intentionally downvoting people for buying MMM gear or downvoting Colin’s threads simply for advertising a sale that to me would seem to be an abuse of the system…on the same foot…if Colin is downvoting other sales threads that are not his own simply because they are selling a similiar product, that to me, would also be an abuse of the system. I doubt the karma system had sales threads in mind when it was designed anyway, So in reality this is all just a huge beef certain folks have with one another that the karma system is being used to cause each other grief. My opinion on that to all of you is knock it the ■■■■ off. We are all adults and as such can handle our grievances in a much more mature manner… take it to PM…or if such is your way…I am sure there are plenty of back alleys and empty field you boys can go battle royale in between your respective home and canada.

There are a lot of ways rules can be interpreted and exploiting a minor loophole is sometimes still a violation of the rules simply becasue it doesnt adhere to the spirit of the rules… in those cases teh mods and the site owner have to make a judgment call and try to be a fair as they can be.

As far as products and parts offered here goes… I have looked at every sales thread of every person currently selling in my quest to build a pack and ALL have their pros and cons. I own one of Colins Ion Arm end caps, pack tubing sets and ribbon cable clamps…and im happy with them…his resin stuff at the time of my purchases, in my opinion had quite a few things abut them that I didnt like…therefore I did not purchase them…If his new aluminum parts look as good as his ion arm end cap and he is able to price them more reasonably…I see no reason why anyone should turn them down. The cons of other folks aluminum came down to price for my first pack build..I simply wasnt paying 65+ dollars for a single part when I could make or purchase resin parts in multiples for the same cost as 1 aluminum part.

Colin…straight up man…if your selling to banned/ blacklisted members any heat you take here at Gbfans is of your own making. The community as a whole will frown on it…and each person will have to decide if they want to continue purchasing from you based solely on that fact. I would have to see some additional evidence before it could sway me from purchasing from you…but if the evidence was damning enough…I could be swayed. At this time though, allegations are all I have seen…to me talk is cheap so I look forward to seeing how your aluminum parts come out and how they are priced. Aluminum is the prefferred material for me for pack parts and a more affordable solution to decking out a pack is something I would love to see you or anyone else here provide to the community.

[janderson0719]

@Wallabe

The last time I posted serious feedback about you (it was negative) along with a few others, there were several reports that you were actively seeking out names so those of us who posted this honest, serious, but negative feedback could be banned. Some of your parts could do with improvement, and you sell to shady people. That’s honest feedback, take it or leave it.

Sellers have the choice to sell to whoever they want to. Some sellers have a good history with their buyers. Last time I checked, this site only has a list of blacklisted sellers; not buyers. The feedback thread is the place to make sellers aware of some buyers. Now, with all that said, it really should be of no one else’s concern of who a seller wants to do business with (even if they think certain members are so called “shady”)

Aside from that, I for one agree that posts should not disappear because it only leaves potential acts of sabotage against sellers or other posters.

[Rodimus]

Why can’t we be friends?

Sent from my LG-MS840 using Ghostbusters Fans on Android

[irricanian]

@lunchbox739

Colin…straight up man…if your selling to banned/ blacklisted members any heat you take here at Gbfans is of your own making. The community as a whole will frown on it…and each person will have to decide if they want to continue purchasing from you based solely on that fact.

So me selling to blacklisted sellers is frowned upon by the same community that buys from those same blacklisted sellers? …Interesting

I have many good customers that I have done business with for years and never had any problems with them whatsoever but I’m supposed to drop them because GBfans says so? Where is that a written rule? I do business with who I choose. If I see reason to not sell to them, like in the cases of recasters in the past, then I don’t sell to them and make the community aware of it.

[aj-quick]

@irricanian

So me selling to blacklisted sellers is frowned upon by the same community that buys from those same blacklisted sellers? …Interesting

I have many good customers that I have done business with for years and never had any problems with them whatsoever but I’m supposed to drop them because GBfans says so? Where is that a written rule? I do business with who I choose. If I see reason to not sell to them, like in the cases of recasters in the past, then I don’t sell to them and make the community aware of it.

You’re free to sell to whoever you like.

However. Don’t be surprised when the community gives you negative Karma because of who is on your list.

I see you have removed that list from your for sale thread. So apparently you figured that one out.

[irricanian]

@AJ Quick

I see you have removed that list from your for sale thread. So apparently you figured that one out.

Yes to protect the privacy of my customers. Nothing surprises me anymore.

[lunchbox739]

responded to your PM Colin…My words are solely an opinion of someone looking in from the outside so to speak…so obviously you can take it however you like. The community will judge for itself how they feel about who you sell to. However I dont think people should be actively going after somones sales thread simply because they dont like who you sell to or buy from on occasion. This whole karma system just doesnt seem viable for a forum that has areas that involve transactions of any form. Is it something that can be disabled for indvidual forum sections? maybe shut it down for the classified section?

personally until someone can produce concrete evidence that MMM has stolen from someone in good standing here…recasted or a similiar offense Ill continue to do business with him where it suits my needs. If proof can be provided that he has done something like this then of course Ill stop…I would be a shitpoor member of the community if I didnt. I think quite a few people would be of this frame of mind… so does anyone have some kind of evidence that something like this has taken place? because now that ist all out in the open im sure a lot of folks around here would like to know.

[Vincenzo330]

I don’t think anyone ever accused him of theft or recasting. The issue was with selling to banned members, which he’s in his right to do regardless of how I or anyone else feels about it.

[lunchbox739]

In that case VinC…someone just needs to figure out how to keep his sales threads from being hijacked or hidden due to peoples distaste of him selling to folks of questionable character. His overall karma score may be nil but at least he can continue to do his business and members who are in the know on what quality and ■■■■■■ parts look like can decide for themselves.

People who are abusing the karma system can be dealt with individually in private once that is rectified. problem solved…problem staying solved.

[aj-quick]

Karma hiding in the For Sale section has been disabled as of yesterday.

There is no “hijacking” of threads going on, however. That is a claim from someone upset about having his post hidden. The only abuse we see is someone deliberately downvoting other seller’s threads because of the competition… but since it is just one person doing it against a broad category of people, it has very little actual effect.

A community of people downvoting or upvoting a particular thread is how the system is supposed to operate. That’s not hijacking.

One person doing it systematically for or against a person or group for an extended amount of time can be shown to be abuse.

One person accusing someone of doing something they think they are doing, without any kind of actual proof is lunacy.

(You may want to read the start of the thread to learn more about what actually transpired and is claimed to have happened).

[lunchbox739]

I got the gist of it AJ…i brought up certain topics in my posts to help me make a point. I consider myself neutral in all this. Other then concerns the karma system is being abused (which you have already rectified) i am good…hopefully with all parties involved…i have gotten help and quality product from both sides of this fence

[janderson0719]

I personally would like to see just an up voting system like other forums I’m part of. To hell with down voting. I just can’t see what good of having Karma and down voting can bring to a community. Case in point, this thread alone.

“Give more power to the people, they will abuse it.”

[Ron_Daniels]

@janderson0719

I personally would like to see just an up voting system like other forums I’m part of. To hell with down voting. I just can’t see what good of having Karma and down voting can bring to a community. Case in point, this thread alone.

“Give more power to the people, they will abuse it.”

In theory, it provides a way for the community to moderate itself by “hiding” the posts people believe to be improper, rude, offensive, distasteful, off topic, or otherwise unnecessary. As opposed to people lambasting moderators for “censoring” people by deleting the same types of posts.

[GBfan77]

@AJ Quick

@irricanian

Yes and this can be done by a grouping of users in unison, it takes what, 10 negatives to get a post hidden. There was recent example of a users post being jumped on to the point of it being hidden when all he was doing was asking for “help”

So it is my understanding that you believe there is a conspiracy to have 10 individuals collectively vote and change their opinion to downvote something they don’t agree with?

He may right about that. I was the guy who got jumped on. Now, I don’t want to drag it back up from the Depths and I don’t want to point fingers cause that wont change what happened, and I can’t say I’m not to blame for some of it. But let me tell you what roughly happened.

I posted a topic about other sources for parts when Fan shop was out of stock (Which it is this time of the year). The tread started off fine, everything was going smoothly until a certain member hijacked it and pulled stuff from a build thread I started and had abandoned. Tempers flared and everything went to hell.

So what is my point of bringing this up? My first post on the thread, which was a simple question, was hidden for too many negative votes. A simple question that was in no way negative toward anyone and yet it was hidden for being negative.

So I have to say that what irricanian has mentioned is plausible.

[aj-quick]

@GBfan77

So what is my point of bringing this up? My first post on the thread, which was a simple question, was hidden for too many negative votes. A simple question that was in no way negative toward anyone and yet it was hidden for being negative.

So I have to say that what irricanian has mentioned is plausible.

I’m sorry. But that is passing the blame off.

Your post doesn’t have to be negative toward someone. It can just be, repetative, obvious, or stupid.

I think most people when faced with that post would say… why not try the For Sale forum? I mean.. it was 1 click away from where you posted in the first place.

[GBfan77]

@AJ Quick

Your post doesn’t have to be negative toward someone. It can just be, repetative, obvious, or stupid.

I think most people when faced with that post would say… why not try the For Sale forum? I mean.. it was 1 click away from where you posted in the first place.

How many times Have I posted since Joining? 128. 129 counting this post. I’m not here very often, so how would I know to try the for sale forum? And How do you know I didn’t? I’ve checked the For sale section since then and have not found what I’m looking for.

Repetitive? Well, I had to keep reminding people what the thread was about since my question was hidden

Obvious? For someone who has been a part of this community for a long time of course. As I’ve said I don’t post here often, in fact I took a four Month break from this place for my own reasons. I’ve only recently decided to come back here to pursue my new hobby. Though after what happened, I was beginning to wonder why.

Stupid? I hope you’re not directing that towards me. If you are then you’re just being nasty.

[aj-quick]

Whoops. Forgot one for the list.

@AJ Quick

Your post doesn’t have to be negative toward someone. It can just be, repetative, obvious, stupid or you could have a poor attitude.

To be fair here. You have the most negative Karma out of anyone on this site. I highly doubt it is due to something someone else did.