I completely agree with Cole. Even if you wanted to say Chris’s shell is just a fan made shell, you absolutely can’t go past Neils production shell. The thing has been cast from a gb1 stunt shell and I’m fairly sure the stunt shells were cast from a similar mold to the hero’s. Granted because the original mold was cut up there are some discrepancies with some measurements,I’ve been told there are some shrinkages in certain areas, I been told the centre valley is too skinny for example. Possibly the overall height and width is out due to these shrinkages, but in my mind you can’t go past using this as an overall guide, especially for tapers. The reason I brought Chris’s build thread up is Chris did what we are now starting to do. Take measurements from the production pack and compare them to the pictures of the heros and see what adjustments might need to be made.
Adam gets fairly passionate right out of the gate with some of his opinions, and welcome his input or not I believe he brings up an honest point. Now I will be honest that I’ve only popped in and out of this thread to check out some progress but it was my understanding to create a set of plans that supersedes Stephan’s technical sheets by modifying some of the errorneous details to create a more accurate set of plans.
Now, using a fan made pack to extrapolate the relevant data seems to marr that goal. I would think using photographs and known measurements of the Lobby packs would be the best route to completion, not using fan creations. Unless this is not the end game of this project, is this just to create idealized plan sets?
I believe there is some confusion here as to what is going on, where the measurements are coming from and what not. The goal of this project is to update / replace Stefan’s plans with new plans that can be kept up to date with new discoveries.
We start with Stefan’s plans, and apply changes and discoveries that have been made since his were created over 10 years ago.
Reference photos with measurements (or just screen used shell measurements) are the #1 source for direction. When Stefan first created his plans, he only had a few half megapixel poorly lit photographs. Now that we have more photos and even measurements… that’s the place where we will start.
Venky and pchrisbosh’s shells are by far the most accurate shells out there currently. I saw pchrisbosh’s shell and my jaw dropped at all the details he implemented into his shells. I don’t think we should be taking measurements directly from his work without his permission… but as others have said… using them for visual cues is probably the best. (There are details on those shells that even the best builders have not yet found on their own, or implemented into their own shells).
I don’t think anyone is saying we should make plans based solely off of Venky’s shell or pchrisbosh’s shell. Likewise I don’t think anyone has an agenda here other than to make the best plans possible. If anyone disagrees with the measurements, they can change them and explain why they would need to be changed… Then the changes can be made. It’s a group effort.
Anyone who doesn’t see eye to eye with something can work on changes on their own… and heck release your own plans down the line too. If you don’t want to contribute here, and want to interject some crazy conspiracy theories about some prop illuminati… then this site is not for you.
I’m excited to see this take shape. Hopefully we can move on to the next set of boxes, and then the 3d files can be released and we can make derivative projects and plans, such as pepakura plans.
I was really happy to see this start to take shape. I plan to do as much work as I can to forward this effort.
Here’s my issue so far:
Using Fan made / Fan altered packs as the source of altered measurements has been brought up several times. I HEAVILY disagree with this. I have stated that several times. We don’t have permission from the builders. If you are trying to make plans to one of those shells, what is the point? Just buy their shell. Taking measurements directly from a Fan shell, making plans, and then creating a shell without permission is in my book a sneaky way of recasting. I have asked how I can assist the effort and the answer was to give dimensions of the uber pack (fan pack) so they can be drawn up.
Currently I only see 4 main people “contributing” ideas/measurements to this. Of these 4, the majority seems to want dimensions directly off of fan made packs. If we are going for the highest accuracy we need to use photo references of screen used packs AND any input from veteran pack builders that wish to contribute their findings. NOT taking measurements off their work without permission. I think double checking after we have a conclusion to their pack would be okay…but if there is a difference we need to debate and find WHY there is one. Not just take their dimension as gospel.
There has been too few members debating/discussing measurement findings. Lately it’s been myself and Cole. This is not ideal. We need MORE members contributing and giving opinions. If Cole and I disagree we need other people to look and give their input. I am more than happy to admit when I’m wrong as long as there is a consensus on what it should be. I don’t feel comfortable going with one persons findings if it’s only that one persons findings. Same goes for my findings…I want more than just myself to agree with me.
I really hope we can get through this and make an extremely accurate set of plans, but it’s going to take time and more members contributing. Ramjet I know life gets in the way at times, so instead of just putting up the PDF can we make the actual files available for others to edit? Unless you think we need a “guardian”.
Finally, if the direction of this is to heavily use Fan made shells dimensions (which it appears most say that’s what should be used) then I cannot morally be apart of this, and my contributions will end here.
I’m back on the project tonight and for the rest of the week.
I’ll get a repository for the Solidworks files up in Google docs or Dropbox. You don’t need a guardian, mate.
AJ has the right of it.
We will be using the reference photos for the dimensions, and the fan packs for the details the other sources are missing. It’s the best of both worlds.
However, please keep in mind the only way this project can move forward and be: A. Accurate, and B. Bitchin’ then we’re going to need all the help we can get. We can’t make things any better without lots of help. As I outlined in my post our process should be:
-Use Stefan’s plans as a base.
-Use Reference Photos with measurements to tweak.
-Use Reference Photos to scale off of.
-Use Reference Photos to make an educated guess.
-Double check against Venky / pchrisbosh for tweaks. (But I say, with their permission ONLY).
I don’t believe anyone in this thread was suggesting solely using a fan made shell to create the whole thing… and if that were true, there would be no need for anyone to participate as you are saying.
Lets get this back on track as Ramjet is going to start a few new boxes to model.
Just thought id add my 2 cents on how I feel about this thread and measurements. Having just been wrongfully called out on having an agenda with these new plans, I feel I need to properly point out my view and where I’m coming from.
First of all I really do think this thread is a fantastic idea, I think it’s about time we all pulled all the research that has been done over all the years and produce some new plans so people don’t have to dig through old posts to find information that has become buried. It has been well known for quite sometime that Stephan’s plans have become a little outdated with all the new information that has come to pass since he made them as well as the production shell coming into light.
I Absolutely did not mean to stir any bad blood or step on anyone’s toes by pointing out Chris’s build or suggesting that that we use the production shell and Chris’s build thread as a guide. However I do honestly believe that both those shells are the best physical things we have to turn to to check any measurements we arrive at or anything we want can’t decide on, ie what kind of taper the eda has.
I just know that Chris has already done a lot of the research into the subtle changes were between the stunt shell and the reference pictures , why reinvent the wheel from scratch if there is already alot of solid research in place already?
Having said that, Just because I own one of Chris shells does not mean that I’m trying to force it upon people as the most correct thing out there just to validate my own build as being most accurate. I have always been open to new changes and new measurements in the continuing path for accuracy and if more things are uncovered then I am always happy to discuss them and take them on board.
I agree the research has been done. We should be asking Chris if he is willing to SHARE his research to aid in the creation of these plans. I view just measuring his shell is essentially “stealing” his research. I had hoped that the people who have done this research already (Chris and others) would step forward in this thread to help. It is their right to not participate though, which means we may have to reinvent the wheel.
I defiantly agree with you, and steeling anybody’s research is the last thing id want to do, even more so as both Neil and Chris are my friends. I only suggested that the research is there already and that we should use it as a guide, I do not see the harm in reading through someone’s build thread and taking note off all the things they have flagged as being more accurate to the hero shell, Chri’s thread is really good at documenting a step my step process.
I agree with you that the next step will be seeing if they would like to pop by and join the discussion… I’ll send Chris a PM and i’m currently chatting with Neil to see if he would mind contributing…
I am totally on board for this to help out to get a more definitive guide for those who wish to scratch build their own packs. I will talk with Chris and see what we can come up with.
Great work on the drawings so far Cole and Ramjet!
I have created a Dropbox account for the Solidworks model and drawing files.
The PDF files I will keep linking to here for general access.
If you would like to assist with creating Solidworks 2010 files, please PM me with your email address and I’ll add you to the list of people who can access and modify the files.
I probably can’t offer much assistance until after the Halloween craziness settles down but I have done my fair share of research already.
Having handled both screen-used Hero and Stunt packs I can definitively say that there are slight differences in the actual shell portions of the packs. I believe that there were 2 separate bucks built simultaneously for production, one for hero and one for Stunt.
Venky and HMS’ shells are both of a stunt origin and while many elements were retained from the original pack, the mold was cut into pieces and reassembled before either of their shells were pulled from it so they cannot be 100% trusted for definitive measurements.
Chris’s shell is an excellent example of an idealized build based from a stunt shell and he has done an amazing job of filling in the unknown dimensions.
I think we need to first decide if we want to base these new plans on stunt, hero or a hybrid of both.
I wanted to check and see if this would work out so I went in and plugged a 1 degree taper on the top fin to see how everything would work out.
The issue I ran into is that at the base of the fins, the spacing remains 11/16", 9/16", and 9/16" regardless of where the tapers are. If we move the bottom of the top fin out 1/16" (1 degree over 4"), then the bottom fins all need to move up 1/16". If we do that, then the bottom fin comes in closer to the powercell box and we loose our 2-3 degree angle that can be seen in all of the reference photos.
Do you have any measurements or photos we could reference that would help prove the top fin tapers in? I’m not saying it doesn’t but if it does, there need to be other changes to the model to accommodate this. (maybe the powercell box itself is tapered?)
This is the ONLY point here I have a problem with. If the community decides we want hero plans, then Venky’s shell isn’t as relevant as it could be. Yes, Chris’ shell is gorgeous (and there are very few things I wouldn’t do to get one), but it’s still fan made. We can use both of these shells to get extra insight, such as getting a perspective on a piece not available in the reference pics. But, we should NOT be double checking our measurements against them. If anything, we should be doing the opposite. (If we receive their permission) We could measure their shells, but those measurements should be checked against what we know about the screen used shells, not the other way around.
